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I’m both, and while I do hate myself, I don’t think it’s related, so I’m not sure I get it.
(I hate computers more, though, except when they’re turned off — no bugs when they’re off —, but they’re the only thing I’m good enough at to make a living off of.)
Hating computers is normal for people who love computers
I try to be understanding with my software brethren. We’re different sides to the whole. Ying and yang, so to speak.
That said, I’ve gotten some brain-dead requests from you developer types.
I’m not saying all of you are the problem, but there’s definitely some of you that need to learn how things work.
This is the same between many different software development disciplines, fpga devs (or hardware devs for that matter) vs. driver devs, driver devs vs. backend dev, backend devs vs frontend devs, integrators vs everyone.
How is software not a subset of IT?
Infrastructure maintenance is management, security and day to day business, while software engineering is mostly concerned with itself. They use distinct tools and generally have nothing to do with each other (except maybe integration).
We need new terms, IT means “works with computers, but more than Word and Excel” for too many people. In Switzerland they split the apprenticeship names to ‘platform engineer’ and ‘application engineer’, which I think is fitting.
Think of it like an engine: The mechanics working on the engine aren’t the engineers designing the thing.
I’m IT and my cousin is software. I had to teach him basic computer maintenance…
I spent a weekend helping my buddy who graduated magna cum laude with an Electrical and Computer Engineering degree build a PC. Given a breadboard and some schematics, he could probably have created working prototypes of half of the components, but figuring out where to put the screw risers under the motherboard? Forget about it.
That’s wild
the User vs Builder relationship has been a bit tense for thousands of years
This shit is hilarious!
I’m both IT and development…and I’ve caught both sides being utterly wrong because they’re only familiar with one and not the other
Traitor.
Containerise everything!
Yes! Containerize, containerize, containerize until every perfectly good machine built before 2020 is rotting away in a landfill!
No we put those in a cluster or take them home for fun projects :D
Exactly what a dev would say… you guys don’t have to deal with that 3rd gen i3 Jenny from accounting is running.
Ticket opened I need soda intalled high importance!!! get up there companies paying for Adobe suite it’s there on the desktop…
I think it’s on a case by case basis but having help desk ppl help you out and opening powershell and noodling without any concept of problem solving made me make this face once.
It probably goes both ways, I’m a dev and I assembled computers at 12 yo so I believe I have a lot of experience and knowledge when it comes to hardware. I’ve also written code for embedded platforms.
IT people in my pov can really come across as enthusiast consumers when it comes to their hardware knowledge.
“did you guys hear Nvidia has the new [marketing term] wow!” . Have you ever thought about what [marketing term] actually does past just reading the marketing announcement?
At the same time I swear to God devs who use macs have no idea how computers work at all and I mean EXCLUDING their skill as a dev. I’ve had them screen share to see what I imagine is a baby’s first day on a computer.
To close this rant: probably goes both ways
Interesting comment on the Mac. At my workplace we can choose between Mac or Windows (no Linux option unfortunately, my personal computer runs Debian). Pretty much all the principle and senior devs go for Mac, install vim, and live in the command line, and I do the same. All the windows people seem over reliant on VSCode, AI apps, and a bunch of other apps Unix people just have cli aliases for and vim shortcuts. I had to get a loaner laptop from work for a week and it was windows. Tried using powershell and installing some other CLI tools and after the first day just shut the laptop and didn’t work until I got back from travel and started using my Mac again.
I have to use windows for work. Installed vim through winget and set a powershell alias, allowing me to use it similarly to linux. Windows ist still just ass though.
If you don’t have access to Linux, MacOS is the closest commercially available option so it makes sense.
Also please take what I said lightly, I by no means want to bash Mac users and generalize them. It just has been my experience. I’m sure there are thousands of highly competent technical users who prefer Mac.
Why wasn’t wsl an option?
Windows is an option
Lmao, devs who insist on using VIM and the terminal over better graphical alternatives just to seem hardcore are the worst devs who write the worst code.
“Let me name all my variables with a single letter and abbreviations cause I can’t be bothered to learn how to setup a professional dev environment with intellisense and autocomplete.”
Spoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about vim/unix.
I know it has a steep learning curve with no benefit over GUI alternatives (unless you have to operate in a GUI-less environment).
Which makes it flat out dumb for a professional developer to use. “Lets make our dev environment needlessly difficult, slowing down new hires for no reason will surely pay off in the long run”.
This is it – the dumbest shit I’ll read today, and I was just dunking on Nazis.
I can run Neovim on my phone via Termux. I can run Neovim over SSH. I can run Neovim in tmux. That’s not possible with VSCode.
I prefer Micro via Terminus
Bruh, there’s a whole help page on that:
I have serve-web running as a service, but that only works well on desktop screen layouts — from my experience, it runs terribly on mobile. However, even then, my tab layout isn’t synced between devices. My tmux saves all of my open projects, so I could throw my phone in a woodchipper at any moment, pull out my laptop, and be exactly where I left off. Good luck doing that with vscode.
Or maybe…hear me out…different people like different things. Some people don’t like GUIs and enjoy working in the command line. For some other people, it’s the opposite.
It’s just different preferences.
You are making prejudiced, generalized, assumptions and presenting them as facts.
You are at best naive if you think people use vim and a terminal instead of “better graphical alternatives” (which there are none of if you’ve really gotten into vim/emacs/whatever). And we don’t do it to seem hardcore (maybe we are, but that’s a side effect). Software in the terminal is often more simple to use, because it allows chaining together outputs and has often simpler user interfaces.
The second paragraph is word salad. Developers should name their shit properly regardless of editor and it’s quite simple to have a professional dev setup with ‘intellisense’ and auto complete in neovim. In fact, vim/neovim and I assume emacs too have much more features and flexibility of which users of IDEs or vscode wouldn’t so much as think of.
I assume your prejudice comes from the fact that vim is not a “one size fits all no configuration needed” integrated development environment (IDE) but rather enables the user to personalize it completely to their own wishes, a Personalized Development Environment. In that regard, using one of the “better graphical tools” is like a mass produced suit while vim is like a tailor made one.
Just let people use what they like. Diversity is a strength.
I tried using VScode to play around with Golang. I had to quit coding to take care of something else. I hit save, and suddenly I have way fewer lines of code. WTF? Why did/would saving delete code? After much digging, it turns out because the all knowing VSCode thought because I had not yet referenced my variables, I never would, and since my code I wanted to save and continue later wouldn’t compile, it must be quelled. Off with its head!
Anyway, I decided to use vim instead. When I did :wq, the file was saved exactly as I had typed it.
This is either false, or you didn’t understand the environment you were working in.
You have to explicitly turn on the setting to have VSCode reformat on save, it’s not on by default, and when it is on, it’s there for a reason, because having software developers that do not all follow the same standard for code formatting creates unpredictable needless chaos on git merge. This is literally ‘working as a software developer on a team 101’.
Agreed. I have colleagues that I write scripts for (I don’t do that any more, I stopped and shit stopped working, so they solve things manually now), they don’t know shit about scripting… and still don’t.
On the other hand, I’ve had the pleasure of working with a dev that was just this very positive, very friendly person and was also very knowledgeable when it came to hardware, so we were on the same page most of the time. He also accepted most of my code changes and the ones that he didn’t, gave him an idea of how to solve it more efficiently. We were a great team to be honest. We’re still friends. Don’t see him as frequently, but we keep in touch.
devs who use macs
Do they exist? Are you sure they are devs?
Our entire .NET shop swapped to MacBook Pros from Dell Precisions for like 2-3 years because our head of development liked them more. Then went back to having a choice after that. So now we have a mix. In all honesty it’s not much different for me but I use everything…Windows, Mac, Linux. Whatever works best for me for the task at hand. DotNet runs on all three so we kind of mix and match. Deploying to Azure allows a mix of windows/linux and utilizing GitHub Actions allows a mix of windows/linux in the same workflows as well. So it’s best to just learn them all. None of them are perfect and have pros/cons.
I dabble in hardware and networking too. I built my first computer when I was 11 by myself. My parents are kind of tech illiterate. I have fiber switches and dual Xeon servers and the such in my house. My NAS is a 36 hot swap bay 4U server. That knowledge definitely helps when deploying to the cloud where you’re responsible for basically everything.
Also, yes. I can do more than .Net languages…that’s where my job currently falls though.
MacOS is literally certified UNIX though.
I’m not a Mac user at all, and I’m lucky enough to be able to run Linux full time at work, but it seems like macs should be alright in many cases.
I’m writing python in PyCharm on my M2 right now.
They do exist and some of them swear Mac has better workflows (than windows because most of the time your options are Windows or Mac). I would call them loonies but I’ve seen some smart people use Macs.
When trying to request a firewall change IT told me “ports between 1 and 1024 are reserved and can’t be used for anything else” so I couldn’t be using it for a pure TCP connection, and besides, there would have to be a protocol on top of TCP, just TCP as protocol is obviously wrong. I was using port 20 because it was already open…
as a full stack dev, everything you said has offended me.
port 20 is used for FTP, unless you were using FTP, then go right ahead. Guessing that since you didn’t know the protocol you were not using FTP.
port usage reservations are incredibly important to ensure that the system is running within spec and secure. imagine each interface like a party telephone line and the ports are time slots.
your neighborhood has reserved specific times (ports) for everyone to call their relatives. if you use the phone not in your slot (port) your neighbors might get pissed off enough to interrupt your slot. and then it’s just chaos from there.
As IT/network/security, using a well known port for something that’s not what is supposed to run on that port, is inviting all kinds of problems.
Especially the very well known ones, like ftp, ssh, SMTP, http, HTTPS, etc (to name a few). People make it their mission to find and exploit open FTP systems. I opened up FTP on a system once to the internet as kind of a honeypot, and within a week or so, there was someone uploading data to it.
No bueno. Don’t use well known ports for things unless the thing that well known port is known for, is what you want to do.
All of that is fine, and they mentioned the management perspective, which I get. It was a field test and our original choice of 4001 - which is what other serial to TCP servers like us use, also in their network - was unavailable.
What irks me is the “technical impossibility” of raw TCP and “I must be wrong” when filling out their firewall change form.
They’ve since given us a different port “close to others that we use”, for whatever reason that matters, and based their choice on some list of common protocols outside the reserved range. But not 4001.
That by itself is just one thing and I wouldn’t give it a second thought, but it’s all part of a larger picture of ineptitude. They opened a ticket because an arrow at the border of our UI vanished when they screen shared on Teams. Because of the red border. And they blamed our application for it.
They didn’t set up their PKI correctly and opening our webpage on specific hosts gave the typical “go back” warning. But it was our fault somehow, even though the certificate was the one they supplied us and it was valid.
This entire thread is giving me impostor syndrome
Bruh I’m a software architect but I don’t know how to code competently in any language.
It just makes me realize how much I hate what I do for a living.
I definitely have moments like this too. I have been reflecting more lately and trying to decide if the feeling is temporary or permanent. I have been pondering what else I would do. Are you considering a career change, and if so, what would you do instead? I don’t know if I could transition to something else without going back to school, and it would kill me a bit inside to take out more student loans.
That’s the conversation I was having with my therapist this week. I don’t know. I’ve always massively struggled with this. Thinking about it sends me into a spiral.
As of now the plan is to look for other opportunities in industry. Some training is fine but I would like to avoid loans. I don’t have anything specific yet, but public sector is likely part of it. I’m less motivated to help people as I am to make certain people miserable. Countries have started to track job quality (“job quality”), it’s data worth looking at.
Depending on how that goes I have other thoughts but nothing that is sucking me in. Maybe I’ll give up entirely and become a vagrant. I also have a viable non-expiring business idea that would de-employ a certain group of people I don’t like. I’m not ready for either of those yet.
In the meantime I have a bucket list of things that I’m working through. It helps me feel like my life has forward momentum despite what’s happening with my career (it’s also opening up new doors I didn’t see before, eg acting). Between that and therapy my job feels often feels like something I’ll deal with later.
All devs turn 40 and quit their job, buy a cottage near the forest and start growing their own vegetables anyway, so you just need to stick to it for a few more years.
What has been working for me is not trying to make software my life or my identity. I don’t get home from work just to work on my side project, or my app, or my Arch install, or even watch videos about coding and shit. I hang out at my pond, play with my pets, play with my son, chill with my wife, work on the yard, or just watch/play something that catches my interest.
It’s like we all have a unique user’s manual for our unique bodies and minds, but we don’t get a copy of it and have to do some reverse engineering to figure out what works. Then you have to have the compassion and empathy for yourself to do the things that increase your happiness instead of doing the things that you’re “supposed” to do.
That’s solid advice. I think I have my identity wrapped up too much in my career, so when I dislike my job, I feel unsatisfied in life. I will try to see it as means to an end more than who I am.
Awesome to hear! It’s easier said than done (like always) because I think sometimes we don’t even realize when we’re doing it.
In the first year of COVID my position got eliminated at the company I’d worked at for 16 years. I’d had different positions within the company, but that place was basically my entire career until then.
That shock to the system, coupled with the fact that several months later I realized I was the same person with the same loved ones, finally flipped some switch in my brain that I didn’t even realize was there. Then the next job I got was fucking horrible and served to weld that switch in its new position, lol.
So now I have a good job with good coworkers, and I appreciate that fact every day, but that’s not going to erode the healthy boundaries and mental compartmentalization.
I love unix shops.
🫶
More like:
“IT people when software people talk about their requirements”No, we won’t whitelist your entire program folder in Endpoint Protection.
Ouch yeah that windows endpoint stuff is really rattling though. I get you just can’t whitelist some folder without compromising security, but when the “eNdPoInt pRoTeCtIon” just removes dlls and exes you are compiling (and makes your PC crawl) you really hate that shit.
Right click? 40 seconds plz (maybe any of the possible contextual right clicks might be on a virus so lets just check them all once again).
At home I have an old linux pc, and it blows those corpo super pcs out the window.
Rant off :-D
Ah yeah, IT people are chill, always be cool with them is also a good idea, not their fault all this crap exists.
Hahaha! We’ve an “architect” who insists he needs to be the owner on the gitlab. My colleague has been telling him to fuck off for the entire week. It reached the point that fool actually complained to our common boss… The guy is so used to working as a start-up and has no fucking clue about proper procedures. It’s terrifying that he could be in charge of anything, really.
No, we can’t get gigabit fiber everywhere. No, I don’t care if your program needs it. Yes, the laws of physics are laws for a reason. Write more robust code.
Write more robust code.
Sure, I could read a book about best practices and Big O…but…What if we just table the idea for a few iterations of Moore’s Law instead?
and Big O
It’s asymptotic. Slower O doesn’t mean faster program.
When I say Big O, I’m talking about the slick jazzy anime about rejecting true love and living with heartbreak because we believe a lie about our own superiority. This is always true, no matter what the discussion context. If I happen to say anything remotely relevant to mathematical Big O, that is just a deeply weird coincidence.
Oh! You meant Moore’s Law is asymptotic!?
Yes! That is key to the joke I was making.
Gigabit fiber? You’re in some posh spot but needs to downgrade for some reason, right?
As a software person i have to protest at being called out like this. It’s the fucking weekend man…stop picking on me for just one damn day.
Yep, unrealistic expectations.
Or “you need a 12th gen i7 to run this thing”… the thing is a glorified Avidemux.
Christ, if you could see the abysmal efficiency of business tier SQL code being churned out in the Lowest Bidder mines overseas…
Using a few terrabytes of memory and a stack of processors as high as my knee so they can recreate Excel in a badly rendered .aspx page built in 2003.
As a dev, I had to fix an O( n! ) algorithm once because the outsourced developer that wrote it had no clue about anything. This algorithm was making database queries. To an on-device database, granted, so no network requests, but jesus christ man. I questioned the sanity of the world that time, and haven’t stopped since.
We have a table with literally three columns. One is an id, another a filename and a third a path. Guess which one was picked as the primary key?
Never seen something so stupid in 28 years of computing. Including my studies.
Well, you don’t want to waste space by adding the same file path twice
In a rapidly churning startup phase, where new releases can and do come out constantly to meet production requirements, this one size fits all mentality is impractical.
If you refuse to whitelist the deployment directory, you will be taking 2am calls to whitelist the emergency releases.
No it can’t wait until Monday at 9am, no there will not be a staged roll out and multiple rounds of testing.
I am more than willing to have a chat; you, me and the CEO.
No it can’t wait until Monday at 9am, no there will not be a staged roll out and multiple rounds of testing.
I hope you’re doing internal product development. Otherwise, name and shame so I can stay the hell away from your product. This is a post-Crowdstrike world.
It IS bespoke internal development, not for deployment outside of the facility.
The computers running the software exist only to run this software and have no business talking to the internet at all.
IT is provided by an external third party vendor who operate on an inflexible “best practices dogma”.Sounds like you’re stuck in a worst practices mindset.
Sign your damn releases and have the whitelisting done by cert.
Sounds like you’re stuck in a worst practices mindset.
Worst/Pragmatic.
If I get a timeline for a feature request, then everything can be scheduled, tested, whitelisted, delivered at a reasonable time.
That’s the rarer event - normally it’s more like “the scale head has died and a technician is on the way to replace it” and whilst I modify the program in question to handle this new input, hundreds of staff are standing around and delivery quotas won’t be met.
Is my position arrogant? This is the job.Sign your damn releases and have the whitelisting done by cert.
I’ll see if this is possible at the site in question, thank you.
