And the app is just a glorified website (Electron app).
download our app
Nah
delete account…
Literally me
The most ironic part…
… an ad for an app for the article…
A huge number of apps these days are web sites compiled into an app, and it shows. For example, an app should be able to remember your address and payment information without signing into an account, yet so many don’t. Almost like they want to force you into signing up. Why might that be?
Just give me a mobile web page if you’re going to do that shit.
I have an app for my sprinkler system and it’s a fucking nightmare. Not only is it basically just a web API, it’s so transparently just a glorified browser with access to exactly one site that frequently my phone thinks that app will work for whatever else I’m trying to open.
Document? Sprinkler app. Web Page? Sprinkler app. Installing from a source other than Google? Oh you better believe the sprinkler app can do that.
Doing anything takes longer to load than it would take me to walk from anywhere on my property to the fucking box and hit whatever button I need to hit.
It frequently forgets what I entered for preferences. I can tell it a week ahead what days I want it to skip but if I do that more than 24 hours on advance I might as well not have done it at all.
Oh you want to make a payment online? Let your sprinklers do that for you. YouTube video? Sprinkler app. YouTube video about fixing your fucking sprinkler system? Sprinkler app.
Apparently the one thing it can’t do is effectively manage my water usage. It’s ONE job
I think all of this stuff is just a big fad. Many people have already been switching back to “dumb” devices.
Document? Sprinkler app. Web Page? Sprinkler app. Installing from a source other than Google? Oh you better believe the sprinkler app can do that.
Android apps tell the system which URLs they can open. If you click a Google Maps link, it can prompt you to open it in the Google Maps app. It sounds like whoever created the sprinkler app misconfigured the app and it’s saying that it can open all URLs, not just the URLs it cares about. They probably read a tutorial about how to make a webview in Android and didn’t know what they were doing :)
Almost certainly. If the guy who was making yandere simulator was tasked with a sprinkler app, it wouldn’t be much worse than it currently is.
I don’t know shit about fuck when it comes to programming, but I know bad programming when I see it.
I don’t know shit about fuck when it comes to programming, but I know bad programming when I see it.
Thanks for this! I often wonder if non-programmers can see this. Such horrible programmers. And embarrassingly low bar for company outsourced it.
Some find it scary that AI might take programmers’ jobs. I like to think that it’s these type programmers being replaced, and I’m kinda keen on having that.
shit that’s amazing
Just request a copy of the source code! Oh wait
Yeah this is begging for [email protected] to replace that app.
Is it actually opening up the Sprinkler app for all those other purposes, or giving you a choice dialog? If it’s actually opening up the app, maybe installing Intent Intercept would at least make it a choice dialog, as it also tries to open everything (just to show information about the request; it’s a dev tool).
I have never actually tried, it’s just suggesting it as an app that can do those things.
So, giving you what I called the choice dialog. That makes sense. Intent intercept wouldn’t help then, it would just give you one more basically irrelevant choice to do all the things (although it’s useful for developers).
I’m sure it can’t actually do any of those things, but it would be nice if it would stop suggesting that it could when I try to open up certain things
Can [email protected] help with that?
If I could rip that thing off the wall and replace it with a spigot I would.
My wife wants it, and she cares more about the grass than I do.
Just give me a mobile web page if you’re going to do that shit.
There’s some apps that just load a site, but the site refuses to load if you load it in a regular browser? Why?? Spoofing the user-agent would probably work around that, but I haven’t tried.
This piece has no real point. No hidden info, no resolution, no exposé, no call-to-arms really.
It’s just “there are way too many apps”, which we already knew.
What a weak article.
It’s behind a paywall for me. Good to hear I don’t have to bother with an archive link
Yeah. The Atlantic kinda sucks.
It used to be a sort of second-rate New Yorker, except now The New Yorker is a second-rate New Yorker.
Harper’s is still decent though. It’s pretty much how it’s been for years.
Just yesterday, Mrs. Warp Core was trying to enroll with an online service. The self-service email confirmation link refused to function correctly in Firefox on a desktop operating system (Windows in this case). It worked flawlessly on Firefox+iOS. Said link also shuttled the user straight off to the phone app.
I’ll add that nearly ever other aspect of their public facing web, including the online chat support, worked flawlessly everywhere I tried it. This all just reeked of hostile design.
When asked about why this is, I simply said:
The browser provides good security and choice for the user. Apps provide good security and control for the vendor.
Used get my haircut at one of those “no appointment needed” haircut chains. Then they got an app, and every time I went it was “Why aren’t you using the app? You need to use the app. Next time use the app. Download the app on your phone. It’s gonna be an hour wait because you didn’t use the app.”
Now I just go to a local place.
I just cut my own hair.
But yeah, this trend is frustrating. When I get food from Jimmy Johns or a handful of other quick meal places, they bring up the app every single time. Yeah, I could get a free sandwich or whatever occasionally, but I really don’t want yet another app on my device. If that choice resulted in a worse experience, I’d find a different service.
This is what CalDAV is for. We don’t need apps. We don’t need Calendly or Google Calendar or some BS.
As someone who needs to let other people schedule time on my calendar without wanting to give them every detail about my personal life I find Calendly to be incredibly useful. But I direct everyone to their website instead of the app, which I’ve never used.
You can break those up into private vs. public calendars
Great, now I have two calendars to manage.
I mean most calendar apps like the default in LineageOS & ikhal aggregate calendars & have a simple selection + coloring for the two calendars. It isn’t rocket surgery.
Okay, now how do I get that second calendar’s availability to someone who isn’t using CalDAV so we’re not playing email ping-pong trying to find a time to meet?
Why assume everyone else has Google?
I just go without.
the overwhelming majority of apps are nothing but websites wrapped in apps that strip away all the privacy and protections anyway, and demand far to many permissions for shit that are completely irrelevant to their purpose (because they want to siphon literally everything out of your phone and monetize the information).
I’d rather miss a deal, a sale, or whatever, than to deal with that shit.
well it is not just that, websites stopped working properly. I almost always run into a problem trying to book a ticket from an airline company’s website.
I recently had a rather baffling experience trying to preemptively avoid this by downloading the stupid app right away, only to discover I needed the website version anyway.
I was attempting to add my Known Traveler Number to an already booked trip with Southwest Airlines, booked by someone else. I was able to link the trip to my account right away in the app, no issue. And I could see the KTN field for my ticket sitting there, empty, greyed-out, and not interactible. I opened up the moble version of their website, completely unsurprised to find it was identical to the app, except for the detail that the KTN field there was functional. Put in the information, changes reflected in the app instantly, and I was in the TAS-pre line that afternoon.
Why did the two versions obviously built from the same codebase have two different sets of capabilities? Why was the website the more capable of the two this time? I have no clue. All I know is I never want to be a developer at a corporation where I’d have to be responsible for this flavor of trash.
When the app is prompting you to accept cookies
Open source social media app: 30MB full size.
Privative social media app: 300MB install + 500 MG data full size 700MG
Go figure. I could have thousand of apps. If they were not packed with intrusive software to get all my data and to lock the company IP.
I use the Voyager Web App lol, only gotta store browser cache and cookies. Take that private social media!
This is partly corporate greed and partly a failure of the Web. A website should be all you need. You shouldn’t need a separate app for every little thing.
It’s not a failure of the web, it’s a failure of corporations to accept their place as just a tab in my browser. It’s also easier to track users, exploit vulnerabilities, etc. from within a mobile app.
Also, push notifications. Most things could be done from a browser, but corpos have to have their push notifications.
It doesn’t matter if you’re the guy who turns every notification off and manages all those… 9/10 people won’t.
If all I’m doing is looking at your catalog, it should work in a mobile browser. That way if I - a Tarheel - find myself in the midwest, I can go “does Menards have 1/4-20 hanger bolts?”
I’ll install an app if it runs mainly on my phone, like a media player or a calculator or maybe even a file viewer. Mobile games…that ship has sunk, frankly.
You can do almost anything with a website that you could do with an app. The only reason they are pushing the apps so hard is because they can collect a lot more data than a website can.
As Cory Doctorow put it, “An app is just a web-page wrapped in enough IP to make it a felony to add an ad-blocker to it.”
The cloud is many things, but most of all, it’s a trap. When software is delivered as a service, when your data and the programs you use to read and write it live on computers that you don’t control, your switching costs skyrocket. Think of Adobe, which no longer lets you buy programs at all, but instead insists that you run its software via the cloud. Adobe used the fact that you no longer own the tools you rely upon to cancel its Pantone color-matching license. One day, every Adobe customer in the world woke up to discover that the colors in their career-spanning file collections had all turned black, and would remain black until they paid an upcharge:
The cloud allows the companies whose products you rely on to alter the functioning and cost of those products unilaterally. Like mobile apps – which can’t be reverse-engineered and modified without risking legal liability – cloud apps are built for enshittification. They are designed to shift power away from users to software companies. An app is just a web-page wrapped in enough IP to make it a felony to add an ad-blocker to it. A cloud app is some Javascript wrapped in enough terms of service clickthroughs to make it a felony to restore old features that the company now wants to upcharge you for.
I legitimately want to scream sometimes as I feel the continual death of local computing and actual software, and it depresses me to no end how few businesses or users see it for what it is.
And it’s exactly this: a trap. A trap users people are racing into, and they have no idea, at all, how bad it’s going to get when the doors close behind them.
The rest of us are left with little recourse. Looking at the difference between Outlook and New Outlook is genuinely depressing because that’s the future we’re all being shepherded into against our will. I swear, in like 10 years, Windows will mostly just be a kiosk for Edge.
Windows will mostly just be a kiosk for Edge.
I think for the vast majority of average users this has been true for a long time.
I agree with you on everything, other than
I legitimately want to scream sometimes as I feel the continual death of local computing and actual software
…it seems to me that it’s never been better, there’s free software for everything, osm data for mapping, it’s just that our expectations have shifted.
I’m with you 100% up to the “little recourse,” I think there’s more options now than there have ever been. Open source (including linux and self hosting) are about the only tech-future things I’m genuinely excited about.
There’s still a learning curve and progress to be made, for sure. However, anecdotally, I’ve seen programming and hosting become vastly more accessible in the last 15 years. Also, not everyone needs to self host, people just need to know someone who is willing and able to set them up.
Not saying it’s a guarantee, but it’s a possible way out, at least. And being here on lemmy, reading and writing about these issues is a good sign there’s movement in the right direction.
This is the main reason why I seldom install anyone’s “app”.
Most of these apps aren’t true apps anyway, they’re just customized browsers that lead you to a website and are free to collect as much data from you and your phone as they want.
I’ll go on your website first if I have to and 9 / 10 I get what I want. Besides, I’ll only ever visit the service once or twice so I don’t need to install a permanent app on my phone for that.
Also desktop mode to circumvent those phone detection systems and trying to force an app.
Desktop mode plus zoom out on iOS, sometimes… then over to a desktop browser app when that falls. Sigh
I wish. Every fucking bank has their own shitty app for 2FA instead of just using standardized and proven TOTP, no way around that.
Same about school apps the article mentioned since it’s connecting to their (one of many) proprietary system, no website for that.
And recently got into the home automation rabbit hole. Lots of devices that require their fucking app, sometimes with mandatory cloud account, just to connect! And people in reviews even praise how easy it is, it’s infuriating! I don’t need light bulbs connecting to the internet, thank you very much.
Ha, sucker, you think your non-Internet-connected lightbulbs make you safe? My Internet-connected lightbulbs have sent my online-car to wardrive your neighbourhood and sniff your Zigbee network!
…if you see my car please tell it to come back to me, I need to go to the shops…
Joke’s on you - I can’t even reach my Zigbee devices in the next room, your car won’t have a chance from the street. That’ll make it easier to convince it to come back home though.
That’s because you don’t have enough zigbee devices. They have to be everywhere so that they can mesh. Have you considered a zigbee carpet? It’s great to link rooms together and it can share data with the zigbee vacuum cleaner.
I get emails from school, with a link that opens a 3rd party app, which only displays a link that opens in the default browser. I’ve asked the school to just send me direct links to the announcements, but they say they can’t. The site doesn’t require authentication, but the URLs have UUIDs so I can’t just guess what the link would be. The app is quite literally just a data exfiltration layer that does everything it can to make sure you can’t bypass it. Good luck getting any other parents to give a shit though.
Good luck getting any other parents to give a shit though.
That’s the big one, sadly.
I returned a bunch of smart outlets I got at Home Depot after I got fed up with waiting for the app to launch just to turn a light on or off.
I also don’t want to have to talk to it, so switching to Home Assistant with Zigbee button remotes has made my experience so much better. And on the plus side, everything still works when the power or Internet goes out because I’ve got it on battery backup.I also don’t want to have to talk to it, so switching to Home Assistant with Zigbee
That’s what started it all for me. I have some Hue lights for TV backlighting and started looking for alternatives when Philipps first threatened making their cloud account mandatory.
Threw out the bridge, works like a charm and I have been buying new devices and return everything I cannot setup locally but it’s annoying because they don’t always tell about their crappy app and cloud accounts on the product info.
All of the banks I’ve used in the past utilize email or SMS for 2FA, which isn’t the must secure, but doesn’t require an app.
They need to switch to Webauthn. SMS-based 2FA should’ve been big 10+ years ago, not today. I don’t really understand why this old style 2FA has been just now becoming popular lately.
The number I remember seeing was that on average, app users are seven times more profitable than web users. Sorry, no citation.
I suspect there’s some selection bias in that regular/loyal users of a particular product or service are more likely to install the app, but it also affords the company greater access to send notifications and collect data. On the rare occasion that I install some random company’s app for a specific benefit, I remove it when I’m done.
Around here, Target (department store chain) will let you order stuff through their app and pick it up in the store parking lot. If you order through the web you have to wait around inside the store to get it. I still won’t install the app but this issue annoys me.
And then there’s guys like me. I don’t announce when I’m coming. I grab the items myself, and then I pay in cash. Nonsequential bills. I’m like a ninja! I can’t be traced! Shashasha!!! Pocket sand!
Then on the way home, if I see someone following me home, I make 3 left turns. If they’re STILL following me? I turn around, and I shoot them…a dirty look!
What? I’m not a psychopath. I just don’t like being followed.
they’re still fingerprinting and tracking devices, pairing that data to facial rec and movement tracking from cameras, and all that to register transaction data.
I recently ordered something from Walmart (I try to avoid it, but I could not find this one thing elsewhere) and you get a link in your email to notify them when you’re in the pickup bay. The link goes to their app. I tried going to the website through Chrome, to no avail. It kept sending me to try to download the app. I did not. I don’t shop there often enough to justify it. I drove to the pickup bay and lo and behold, the sign had a phone number you could call; a very pleasant person answered, asked my name, and I had my order in a few minutes.
I do have a couple grocery store apps for 2 reasons: 1 - there are some extremely low prices that you can only get by “clipping a coupon” within the app, and 2 - loyalty points do turn into cash back.
Safeway (a west coast grocery chain) has implemented it in the worst way possible, though. They had a physical loyalty card which you scanned at checkout/self checkout, which let you access lower prices. But now they have even lower prices only through the app. The app, however, 1 - does not let you enter your old loyalty card number, combine points and cleanly separate from the old method and 2 - you cannot use the damn thing at self checkout. You have to have a checkout clerk scan your barcode in the app, which is insane. I’m just glad Safeway is not my main grocery, because if it were I would have to change to some other grocery.
I was thinking about that a while back. There’s got to be some sort of upper limit to collecting data being useful. I mean at some point it becomes more economical to just buy the data from one other thousands of companies data mining phones rather then going to all the trouble of building and maintaining your own data mining app.
They just sell the data. If they need user data (beyond basics) they might buy it from a data mining company.
This is almost completely true, but I would add the caveat that PWAs (progressive web apps) are not as easy to discover and less familiar to install as an app in an app/play store. It might also be because it’s in Apple and Google’s best interest to not streamline that. But it’s still an obstacle nevertheless.
TBH I dont use an app for anything that can be done in the browser, especially when mobile websites ask me tl get their app.
I’m the same way. The less apps there are on my phone, the better. Also, using the web app is the only way to block ads on certain sites such as Instagram or Twitter.
I wish for a browser addon to just block those app download requests when it smells them. The answer’s only gonna be no for all that, dawg.~
I only have the Starbucks app so my fancy Sunday coffee is done right and they don’t call me Corey Sangeetha or Coarse Kangaroo.
then there are companies like yelp who disable their mobile site and make their desktop site as shitty as possible on mobile to force you to the app.
Doesn’t really sound like a company that I would want to do any business with then.
Huh, is that why I haven’t used yelp in years?
What’s that other shitty company that constantly pesters you to download the app every time you average the site? Teddit?
For reddit, just type in
old.reddit.comand those nags disappear.true but also old reddit is awful to navigate on mobile.
Eh, I prefer it to new Reddit on mobile, especially with all the nags.
Amount of store apps on my phone: zero.
My wife has an app that is basically a card holder. Instead of pulling out a loyalty card, she pulls up the one app that has all of them scanned/copied. It’s great.
Nice. I used to have a handful, and now I just don’t bother with the loyalty program at all. My local grocery’s program is mediocre at best (discount at a gas station I don’t use) and isn’t even required to get discounts, so I don’t bother. And they don’t even need an app, just a phone number, so I just refuse to tell them my number because I’m getting zero value from it.
Likewise for pretty much everything. The only one I actually use is Target, and that’s because I get 5% off using their debit card, plus some random discounts through the app. I don’t go there very often, but when I do, I’ll generally time it when there are some good discounts to stack (usually it’s for birthdays or school, and I have a month or so leeway in when I go).
So yeah, no store apps for me.
The first, if it’s Kroger, don’t have to use a phone #, or yours at least. But honestly I’d recommend not getting groceries there.
No, we avoid our local Kroger store (different name here), but when we go, I use my parents’ number since they go there a lot and frequently use the fuel rewards. Our local grocery is supplied by Associated Food stores, which has the “Food Club” and related store brands.
The main options in my area (Utah) are:
- Kroger sub-brand Smith’s - not very convenient in my area, but the stores are large and have everything
- Associated Food brands - smaller, more plentiful stores
- Walmart/Sam’s - I avoid like the plague, but they’re just as plentiful as AF brands
- Target - crap quality and high prices, not an option at all
- Costco - good selection and great quality for the price
- random specialty shops - higher price, but niche selection
Most of our spending goes to Costco, most of the rest goes to specialty shops, and we fill in the gaps with the local grocery chain. We spend something like $100/month at the grocery store, so it’s not worth interacting with their loyalty program.
I legitimately do not have enough space on my phone to install all the crappy bloatware of all the stores I go to. They quite literally ask the impossible of me.
I have yet to see an app that does something a website could not do…
most apps are just containerized websites.
You know why?
Cause browsers do a lot to protect your data from invasive sniffing.
but if you containerize it in an app, you can remove all those pesky safety measures Which lets you turn a customer into a product by siphoning up all their data and information.
I work in a manufacturing environment. A few years ago they decided they needed a company social media app. They hired, or more likely were sold the idea by Salesforce and built this stupid ass website, then went on a fucking War campaign to get people to install the app on their phone.
They demanded. They begged. They removed functions of HR to the app exclusively. When we protested they simply said no, no room to negotiate, no give. You will use the app or you will not have access to certain information required to do your job. When they closed the plant one day and posted it on the app, they threatened to write up an entire shift that showed up to work anyway without knowing any better.
Because apparently, when you get up at 4 am the first thing you’re supposed to do every day is check an app on your phone to see if you have work that day.
They used to just push out a robo call.
When we have committee meetings with HR they go something like this.
HR: how can we get you guys on the app Committee: how can we retrieve these functions from the app HR: you can’t Committee: that’s your answer.
There have been at least 6 versions of this meeting that I have been a part of.
Most of my coworkers are older than me. Few of them have fancy phones, generally the most basic phone you can get. A number of my coworkers are on parole or work release and have limited access to smart phones for one reason or another and literally have no access to the app.
I was chatting with one of the IT gals recently and apparently resistance to the app is pretty widespread. When I said “venture capital IT firm” she gave me a high five.
They want everyone using this thing and maybe 15% of the company has it. Then they switched to Workday.
It hasn’t gone well.
I’m surprised you guys havent started the push of “If you are going to force us to have this app for essential day to day work, then you need to provide us with phones to put it on, because we can not be expected to devalue our personal devices with excess work related use”
I did mention at one of these meetings that we wouldn’t give them space on our personal devices for free, it did not change their tune. The union has been hammering them on it during negotiations but I doubt they’ll budge on that and we have bigger issues to deal with so they won’t let it be a sticking point.
Someone should analyze the app and see what permissions it needs, cause it could be a much bigger sticking point than anyone realizes if its spying on your phone activities.
I did mention that when I connected to it via a VPN I could see my outgoing traffic spike suspiciously, that particular member of HR is no longer with the company and few of those remaining have the technical background to understand why I find that problematic.
Sadly around here, you’re either on board with the direction the ship is sailing, or you’re not on board. Those is us in bargained positions have been fine, and voice our frustrations freely. But management does not have the same freedom to do so.
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Clarify the app is required by the company (hr) for your job duties as mentioned when it was stated every employee’s responsibility to ensure the work site is open via a phone app. They’ll be happy to confirm that.
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Go see your master agreement about tools supplied by company. That will be in even passable contracts because it’s usually an audit issue.
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Ask company for tool as per contract. “This device here is not a work device and is neither secured nor managed by I.T.” was what we said.
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Ask your shop steward to ask the union to explain to the company that their HR is demanding the use of tools the company will not then provide, which is a concern under section 17p5b.1 “proper tools and training as provided during workday for onsite work required by employees”
If they’re dicks you can try to hit them up for training on how to use the phone.
Teams is why we all have fancy pixel7 company-issued phones. TEAMS. And, since only one guy is on standby after-hours, the rest of them are shut off at 4:49 pm. So lame.
So we’ve been down that road. There are company computers available for that purpose, and training has been provided. It’s a joke we tell each other around here that the only training we get is on the app.
For the handful of folks who are legally prohibited from having a smart phone, the state has requirements in place that they be notified of any schedule changes in advance, they’re often the first to know.
The CEO frequently holds little meetings and fields questions, that’s the next route.
I don’t know what they were sold or why they’re so insistent that we download the app, but their feverish insistence that we download it sure makes me suspicious.
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I wonder when Steve Jobs first approached software developers with this idea. Clearly pre-2007.
The first iPhone didn’t have an app store, and let people put websites on the home screen. You could add some markup to your site that would make this pretty seamless and it worked well.
Harvest data more efficiently for our corporate overlords :)
I recently re-downloaded the Michaels app while I was in the Michaels checkout line just so I could apply a $5 coupon that the register failed to read from the app anyway.
There’s your problem right there.
Does this author not understand how dumb this makes him look? You downloaded an entire app, in the checkout line, for a $5 coupon on something you were likely overcharged for in the first place?
Even when you’re lacking in a store-specific app, your apps will let you pay by app. You just need to figure out (or remember, if you ever knew) whether your gardener or your hair salon takes Venmo, Cash App, PayPal, or one of the new bank-provided services such as Zelle and Paze.
If only there was a universal form of payment that you could keep in your pocket and pull out to use anytime with very minimal interaction. Maybe a card or something.
Apps are all around us now. McDonald’s has an app. Dunkin’ has an app.
Why are you using them?
Every chain restaurant has an app. Every food-delivery service too: Grubhub, Uber Eats, DoorDash, Chowbus.
Why are you using all of them??
Every supermarket and big-box store. I currently have 139 apps on my phone. These include: Menards, Home Depot, Lowe’s, Joann Fabric, Dierbergs, Target, IKEA, Walmart, Whole Foods
Why the fucking hell do you need any of these?!
This is literally the 2024 equivalent of your mother having a dozen toolbars in Internet Explorer because she kept clicking on coupons.
Just go to the place, pull out your credit card, pay the cashier, and leave. How the hell does any functioning adult blame the technology when they have this little self control?
People who are proud of getting a good deal via an app break my heart. Most folks I know like that are not strapped for cash. They just like the feeling of getting a bargain. They don’t consider that the prices are artificially inflated. They don’t need the sale item. And in the long run they’ll probably end up paying more when the stores know their purchasing habits and have A/B tested them enough to know how to provide as little as possible while charging as much as a customer can stomach.
If a coupon requires an app, I don’t by that item. Especially when it comes to groceries. When it comes to store cards, most let you use a phone number instead of scanning the card. So plug in a random number at checkout. You can often get a hit on the first try. Then pay in cash. Dirty up someone else’s data and give these stores nothing on you. Seriously, if people keep giving in, it’s guaranteed to get worse. First the store card, then the app, what’s next?
Most folks I know like that are not strapped for cash.
Whoa. What group do you run in? Literally everyone I talk to on a daily basis is.
I actually just thought through an average day, and the people I talk to regularly. I’ve had conversations with each and every one of them over the past few months about how we’ve had to make major changes to our lifestyles in one way or another because the money is going out faster than it’s coming in. We’re all solidly middle-class, for whatever that means anymore.
So what circles are you in where not everyone is looking for every possible discount they can get? Saving $5 on groceries means I can afford another gallon and a half of gas. I can’t afford to be principled about privacy when those are the stakes. But it doesn’t mean I have to like it.
I think age / location / profession have a lot to do with what socioeconomic circles people run in.
Not to mention luck of the draw.
For sure, but like…I’m a middle-aged software engineer in a low cost-of-living area. My parents always had enough on one income, but we’re struggling on two.
I’m similar, but probably a bit younger. I make a good salary now (I’m in a leadership position), but the people on my team are a bit more “average.” Software engineering will have a higher than average salary, but I’m talking $80-120k for the people who work for me in an area where the median income is $70-80k ($80-120k), and most are single or single-income.
There’s a pretty stark difference between those who are financially stable and those who… aren’t. I don’t have everyone’s salary, but here’s what I see:
- financially stable - drive older car, own house, wardrobe is simple, hobbies are inexpensive, no extravagent trips
- financially unstable - drive late model car, rent, nicer clothes, more expensive hobbies, yearly international trips
Notice I didn’t say anything about income. Some of the financially unstable people have a much higher income (probably double the range above), and some of the financially stable people have a much lower income (e.g. one of my employees is single and just bought a house in a pricier area, while being at the bottom of the income range).
I obviously don’t know your income or situation, but I think most people can do much better than they are without changing their income. And the more financially stable you can be, the more “quiet” confidence you get (i.e. you’re not distracted by when payday is), and the more likely you are to get that promotion or better paying job. Success tends to breed success.
Check out The Millionaire Next Door, which gives lots of examples about how wealthy people tend to be frugal and careful with money. There’s not really any secret sauce here, just delayed gratification and discipline. Obviously a $100k salary will go a bit further than a $50k salary, but even a median income can rocket you to an upper-middle class/lower-upper class retirement if you manage it carefully. I’m happy to walk through a scenario if you like, but that’s a bit off-topic for this community and is probably better for one of the PF communities.
I have a rule of thumb for financial stability.
Level 1 - just buy groceries and pay for them without stressing
Level 2 - don’t worry about when payday hits
Level 3 - don’t worry about getting laid off
That makes a ton of sense. To add some numbers to it:
- $1k in the bank - should be enough for any one emergency
- 1 month e-fund - no longer impacted by payday being late
- 3 month e-fund
Getting to step 1 can be very difficult, especially for the lower class, but $10 or $20 at a time can get there. But it needs to be intentional, and that’s really hard when working two (or three) jobs, so many just don’t put in the consistent effort needed to get there. But once that first buffer is there, the rest becomes a lot easier since you’re no longer getting pushed backwards.
Honestly, what you see isn’t familiar to me at all. The people I know are very good at being frugal and wringing the last out of every dime, not being extravagant or frivolous, etc. We have no car payment on our ten-year-old minivan, own our home, and haven’t been clothes shopping in years except to replace things that wear out, that sort of thing.
The problem isn’t budgeting; we have a budget, and we stick to it pretty well. There are very few things we could cut, and doing so might save us a hundred or so dollars per month. The problem is that inflation has eaten up every dollar from my paycheck we used to have in surplus. The problem is that my salary hasn’t kept up with inflation and nobody else around here is hiring.
Yes, you can budget yourself from the top of one financial class into the bottom of another one; and you can manage money poorly enough to drop from anywhere to the bottom of the heap. But that doesn’t change the fact that there is a significant financial crunch happening for most people in the world right now.
Seems like everyone has their own preferred explanation as to why that’s happening (corporate greed vs. government overreach), but the fact that it’s happening seems pretty clear.
my salary hasn’t kept up with inflation
Yes, that certainly is a problem. Salary increases tend to lag inflation a bit, so you’d either need to switch jobs or wait to get caught up.
That said, wage growth has exceeded inflation for the last year and a half or so, so hopefully you’ll get a yearly salary bump to help out. Our salary bump was higher than usual last year (about 5%), but still below inflation (8-9%), and I hope our salary bump this year will fix that (4% would be enough to catch back up).
But the fact that you’ve been able to stay financially stable despite high inflation means you’re probably closer to “The Millionaire Next Door” than the average Joe drowning in credit card debt. If you can stay out of debt and put money away for retirement every month, you’ll be doing fine in your 60s when you’re looking at retirement.
you can budget yourself from the top of one financial class into the bottom of another one
Sure, if you follow the average advice (save 10%), then yeah, one bump-up is essentially expected. But if you’re more aggressive, jumping up more than one level should be feasible.
This video talks about economic classes, and the portion I linked shows how you can go from $65k/year salary (middle middle class) to lower upper class by age 50 by just investing 10% of your income. So this is essentially middle middle-class to lower-upper class. If you do 40 years instead of stopping at 50, you’d have $3M by retirement age. If we account for 2% inflation, you’d have about $1.7M in today’s dollars, which is almost to upper upper class. If you bump to 15% of your income, you end up with $2.6M after taking inflation into account, which is in that upper upper class range. So with just a median household salary, you can have an upper upper class retirement.
My circle of friends are also not strapped for cash. I’m confused as to how that’s so baffling to you. We’re very much NOT upper class.
We’re very much NOT upper class.
I kinda think that not being strapped for cash is being upper-class.
Upper-class: Always having enough
Middle-class: Always having almost enough
Lower-class: Never having enough
“Class” is determined by income, “enough” is determined by spending habits. You could make $50k and have positive cash flow, or you could make $400k and always be strapped for cash. The higher your income is, the more options you have, but also the more exposure you have to more ways to waste your money.
This is a great video about this. Basically:
- lower class ($34k median income, $3400 net worth) - ~25% of population - these are those who truly struggle with emergencies, and flirt w/ the federal poverty line; net worth is pretty much nothing (often negative!); main goal is get an emergency fund to break the cycle of poverty
- middle class - three categories (lower, middle, upper)
- lower ($44k median income, $71k net worth) - ~20% population - identify more with middle-middle class and tend to get into more debt than necessary by keeping up with the Joneses, and could be financially stable w/ some discipline
- middle ($81k median income, $159k net worth) - ~20% - financially stable, most of assets are in home
- upper ($117k median income, $307k net worth) - ~20% - passive income and compound interest supplement income; some live paycheck-to-paycheck due to lifestyle inflation, but some can do really well with investments
- upper class - two categories (lower and upper)
- lower ($189k median income, $747k net worth) - ~10% - specialized professions; most people can get into the lower upper class with discipline (10% savings rate on $65k salary => $787k investments by age 50); little pressure from everyday expenses
- upper ($378k median income, $2.5M net worth) - ~5% - some college grads working as employees, but a lot of these are business owners
At each level, I see two types of people:
- lower class
- savers - those who scrimp to be able to cover emergencies that would otherwise screw them over; these can move up to the middle class
- “normies” - those who get screwed over and over and stay in the lower class
- middle class
- savers - less scrimping here, but need to budget and avoid “keeping up with the Joneses”; some discipline can establish a solid retirement
- “normies” - debt payments prevent any kind of progression, and workers are terrified of job loss because the house of cards could come tumbling down
- upper class
- savers - become really wealthy (upper upper class)
- “normies” - some upper class folks are “strapped for cash” because they can’t keep their spending in check, but most have enough income to recover from even the worst mistakes
By this metric, not being strapped for cash is possible for pretty much anyone in the lower-middle class and above, and even those in the lower class could get there by stabilizing their finances so they can take some risks to increase their income (i.e. night school, quitting a bad job for a better job, getting CDL and financing a truck, etc). On the flipside, being strapped for cash is also quite possible at pretty much any income level, and I’ve heard plenty of stories about lawyers and doctors having trouble keeping up with debt payments because they got caught trying to keep up with those wealthier than them.
So I don’t think “strapped for cash” is a good metric for economic class, income is, because you can make choices that can cause you to be paycheck-to-paycheck at almost any income level, as well as choices to maintain stability at almost any income level.
not being strapped for cash is possible for pretty much anyone in the lower-middle class and above, and even those in the lower class could get there by stabilizing their finances so they can take some risks to increase their income (i.e. night school, quitting a bad job for a better job, getting CDL and financing a truck, etc).
It’s easy to say “stabilize your finances!” but on a practical level it’s almost impossible to do when there’s no wiggle room. You can’t stabilize any finances if you’re taking out payday loans in order to pay rent every month. It’s not like there’s any money to be put into savings if you’re making $2,000 a month but putting $1,000 toward rent, since most people rather like to eat.
I’m thankful to not be in that situation, personally, but it’s not something you can just wish your way out of. Even your examples require a certain level of financial breathing room that people don’t tend to have when every dollar is spoken for. You can’t finance a truck if your DTI is already high. You can’t take CDL training or night school if you have to work two jobs just to keep food on the table.
I’ve heard plenty of stories about lawyers and doctors having trouble keeping up with debt payments because they got caught trying to keep up with those wealthier than them.
But if you get into that scenario, you can just sell the supercar or downsize your house or whatever. That’s not really an option for people who are living paycheck-to-paycheck.
So I don’t think “strapped for cash” is a good metric for economic class, income is,
I think income divided by local cost-of-living could be, maybe.
At the end of the day, irresponsibility with money is still a problem for sure. And keeping-up-with-the-joneses is probably a problem for some people. I’m not one of them, and none of the people I know are either, but I suppose some people have that issue. In my experience, though, most people who are struggling financially are not in those situations. They’re just trying to keep their heads above water.
You can’t stabilize any finances if you’re taking out payday loans in order to pay rent every month
Oh, I 100% agree. But in many cases, taking payday loans is a symptom of other serious problems in someone’s spending patterns and not necessarily an income problem. Maybe the car payment is too high, or perhaps they’re paying too much for food. Whatever it is, that needs to get fixed to end the need for emergency cash.
If you’re in the lower middle class or higher, there’s no excuse for it IMO. If you’re in the lower class, you’ll need to get creative (government assistance, co-living, etc).
you can just sell the supercar or downsize your house or whatever
You say that, but in many cases, they still end up net worth negative. The problem here isn’t with income, but spending, and you’re not going to sell your way out of a spending problem.
I think income divided by local cost-of-living could be, maybe.
Certainly. Economic classes are very much location-dependent. If you live in NYC or SF, you’d need to adjust the numbers a bit, likewise if you live in rural Mississippi or something. And there are calculators available online to help with that.
most people who are struggling financially are not in those situations
Pretty much everyone will say that though, because people are pretty bad at noticing the excesses in their own spending. If you’re not standing out as being “weird” for spending so little, then you’re probably “keeping up with the Joneses,” because the average American is pretty irresponsible.
This is a pretty broad brush stroke to be sure, and I’m sure there are plenty who are legitimately struggling despite a conscious effort to cut costs. I’m just saying that many, if not most, people who aren’t “financially stable” could make room in their budget to get financially stable, but instead end up throwing a ton of money down the drain due to interest.
Add the 1% there. Generational wealth people. Private jets, multiple mansion homes, etc. They’re far above the upper class. Totally different plane of existence from everyone else.
sugar summed it up nicely.
We make a decent amount, but we’re priced out of buying a home right now. We have a solid amount of savings and stocks, and our only debt is my partner’s student loans which aren’t a ton. We just don’t think about money day to day.
If we want something, we just get it. But we don’t really want things, so we mainly just spend money on food and booze. And Steam games, but only if they’re 50% off or more.
We’re probably lower-middle to middle-class. Lower now, maybe mid-mid when we finally can buy a house.
People who are proud of getting a good deal via an app break my heart. Most folks I know like that are not strapped for cash. They just like the feeling of getting a bargain. They don’t consider that the prices are artificially inflated.
Thats why Prime Day is such a big deal.
People think they are getting awesome deals cause its 50% off, are not going and checking price trackers to see the item had a HUGE price spike a week before Prime Day.
But they think they got 50% off and that gives them that massive dopamine rush, and that encourages more spending.
The Lowe’s app is actually really handy. You can look up any item and it will tell you the exact isle and bay it’s in for your store. No more wandering around or hunting for an employee to ask. It’s the only store app I actually keep on my phone.
The point is it’s bullshit that’s not available on the Lowes website.
It actually is available on the website, but like most stores their mobile web experience isn’t great.
This just in: Author/professor/CEO whose books/classes/company are about manipulative technologies… voluntarily installs manipulative technologies.
Honestly, if there were a simpler way to sell their personal data to retailers for people who want to do so, that probably would be more appealing for the users.
Why the fucking hell do you need any of these?!
Yup, I have none of them, and I still get a pretty good deal.
Most of my spending is at Costco, and they send me a paper ad once/month, which I’ll go through and add relevant stuff to my list (in a separate app). But even if I don’t get a discount, their prices are still better than most (e.g. eggs are normally $2.50 or so per dozen, whereas the grocery sells them for $4+). If I’m going to spend more than normal, I’ll check a few sites before going out (or ordering online), and sometimes I’ll ask the store clerk to price match to avoid multiple stops. The one place I have an app for is on my old phone, and it’s for Target because they actually have decent sales sometimes. I don’t check very often, but I will when I’m going to go buy a bunch of gifts for birthdays or holidays or whatever (and again, I’ll check multiple sites first), and I use the 5% off w/ the Target debit card.
I literally don’t bother with any loyalty programs. My grocery store’s loyalty program isn’t needed for discounts, it’s only for a discount on gas at some gas station I don’t go to (and isn’t even next to the store). There’s another with a better loyalty program (they have their own gas stations), but they’re further away and it would cost me more in gas to go there than I’d save.
So if we need something, we’ll look for coupons or whatever before setting out, we don’t use an app or loyalty program. I’m pretty sure we end up wasting a lot less money this way.
I stopped reading the article after it just became a list of apps. Felt like a thinly veiled ad, and if not, annoying af.
tiktok brain
Sorry, I don’t know what that means, I don’t have Tiktok. I’m talking about the whole article being vapid, just multiple paragraphs that are lists of apps:
It could be Class Dojo, Brightwheel, Bloomz, or TalkingPoints. It could be ClassLink, SchoolStatus, or PowerSchool.
Is it like brand name dropping to keep people’s attention or something?
