For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish “russian death camps” not in most of history textbooks?
Also it’s not unreasonable to hate the aggressor. So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It’s not like tribal collective punishment isn’t engrained in our blood.
For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish “russian death camps” not in most of history textbooks?
Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
Also it’s not unreasonable to hate the aggressor.
Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis. I am not arguing about whether everyday Finns might have had animosity towards Russia for a few years. I am talking about being the willing Northern front for Nazi Germany, deporting Jews to camps, rounding up tons of civilians and keeping them in starvation conditions.
So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It’s not like tribal collective punishment isn’t engrained in our blood.
This was not tribal, it was a nation state and the forces were political. Lapua members were the key Nazi collaborators and they were anticommunist ideologues long before the Winter War.
Please refrain from bullshit human nature arguments to justify Nazi collaboration.
Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
Most of history textbooks barely mention WWII by the same notion. I won’t argue I might know too little about the history of Finland. Although seeing how overwhelmingly current day Finns seem to oppose Russia and often mention the Winter War. It does seem that USSR was the worse of two evils there.
Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis.
That’s the point. They had a choise. Either side with the Allies and hence USSR (which fucked them up) or ally with Germany. It was an obvious only choise for them.
This was not tribal
The point is that tribal “us vs them” is just common. Same goes with countries. It depends if the group has a common identity.
Why do you even want to defend an empire?
What on earth are you talking about?
False understanding of your stance on my part. Sorry for that. I thought you’re defending the current day Russian state.
Most of history textbooks barely mention WWII by the same notion. I won’t argue I might know too little about the history of Finland. Although seeing how overwhelmingly current day Finns seem to oppose Russia and often mention the Winter War. It does seem that USSR was the worse of two evils there.
Is it your experience that most people are historically informed as opposed to moved to adopt narratives by dominant forces? Finns have been doing historical revisionism on their alignment with Nazis since the 1940s. You need to have better logic than, “well most Finns say so”.
That’s the point. They had a choise. Either side with the Allies and hence USSR (which fucked them up) or ally with Germany. It was an obvious only choise for them.
The Finnish police state was already fascist-aligned before the Winter War. You are just making things up and pretending it is history. It is possible to actually know things, but you have to be humble and actually read. Your imagination is not a history book.
The point is that tribal “us vs them” is just common. Same goes with countries. It depends if the group has a common identity.
I already addressed this. You can respond to what I said or ignore it entirely but I won’t be entertaining it further if you are going to cherry pick.
False understanding of your stance on my part. Sorry for that. I thought you’re defending the current day Russian state.
The current day Russian state is also not an empire. Again, what on earth are you talking about?
You keep clinging on little details. Russia is an empire due to how many smaller nations were conquered to the east. Just like USA is an Empire etc. Current rebranding doesn’t change the fact.
Fuck ton of countries were fascist just before and during WWII. It’s not a serious argument to make here. Fascism is just getting to power without democratic means.
And for the Finns. I honestly feel sad for you, if you believe there is a conspiracy theory that managed to brainwash an entire nation.
Those “little details” are the core facts in contradiction of your claims.
Russia is an empire due to how many smaller nations were conquered to the east.
The Russian Empire did so. The Soviets and RF did not. Though if we are speaking of conquering nations, the US certainly did so, and remains the same political entity it did during its genocides of indigenous Americans. The transitions to the USSR and the RF were in no way trivial, it was not just some rebranding. Both were cataclysmic.
Fuck ton of countries were fascist just before and during WWII. It’s not a serious argument to make here.
A handful of European countries were fascist around WWII. It is of course a basic fact and remains a deep stain. Please do your best to not normalize Nazi collaboration.
Fascism is just getting to power without democratic means.
That is not what fascism is at all. Not even under erroneous liberal definitions.
And for the Finns. I honestly feel sad for you, if you believe there is a conspiracy theory that managed to brainwash an entire nation.
False historical narratives do not require grand conspiracy theories. Just the very normal and common process of manufacturing consent.
Just beause Russian Empire rebranded itself it ia still basically the same size with the same subjugated people. The same yakut people are still subjugated. The cataclysmic event you’re talking about is workers revolt. The other is the collapse where quite a bit of countries at least managed to escape. All we can hope is for the fall of russia and for other cultures to emerge.
Here is the common definition:
Fascism - A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
Even if you have 2 fascist countries, their goals and decisions are and usually is different.
And for consent. Look at bloody linux distros. Even if people actually want consent, it is basically impossible to achieve. Every expert will interpret it differently and you will have multiple narratives.
Just beause Russian Empire rebranded itself it ia still basically the same size with the same subjugated people.
I addressed this in my previous comment. If you’re not going to even read and respond to what I sau, what are we doing here?
The same yakut people are still subjugated.
Good example. The Yakut people were conquered and annexed by the Russian Empire and many were forced into diaspora. The USSR created a Yakut autonomous region and gave them far more control over their own fates and lands. The RF has done very little other than the usual capitalist exploitation of resources. Three unique stories and three different experiences.
The cataclysmic event you’re talking about is workers revolt.
A revolution and creation of a new state premised on substantial regional autonomy and protection for local cultures. Ukraine today owes its entire national existence to Lenin’s insistence on promoting Ukrainian national identity and degrees of autonomy and cultural protections.
The other is the collapse where quite a bit of countries at least managed to escape.
A collapse due to capitakist takeover, a time period where the country was subjected to “shock therapy” and dissolved / split against the will of its people. Tens of millions died due to the sudden deprivations. That is the doing of your Western powers whose lines you are echoing
All we can hope is for the fall of russia and for other cultures to emerge.
Please refrain from racism.
Here is the common definition:
Fascism - A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
Yeah that’s not what you said before. Can you spot the differences? Though of course to understand fascism you will need to learn history and politics, not just Google “fascism definition”.
Even if you have 2 fascist countries, their goals and decisions are and usually is different.
Given that you don’t know what fascism is, why are you confidently announcing generalizations about it? In order to have correct ideas and be helpful to others, it is important to have humility.
And for consent. Look at bloody linux distros. Even if people actually want consent, it is basically impossible to achieve. Every expert will interpret it differently and you will have multiple narratives.
Ukraine had a national identity before Lenin, tho. Although the dude is/was ahead of it’s time. And the social idealism that follows looks pretty neat. Sadly he quickly died and another fella came to power. Usually when people bash USSR they bash Stalin’s regime. It’s far from socialist ideals. You shouldn’t mix it up and just nitpick what you like.
If people are subjugated and still remain under democratic rule, they can still be under repression, due to voting majority. It’s the same reason why Israel fears giving the vote access to palestinians.
You can try to follow Nazi fascism idea of fascism by following history notebooks. But it will get us nowhere. Without common definition that we have. Since for example Lithuania had a president which was with dictatorial levels of power during the time. He was not aligned with Nazi Germany. What kind of word would you use to describe the rule? There are reasons why fascism is defined like it is.
And dude, you can’t be racist against a country. You and I operate with completely different definitions. I doubt we’ll come to a conclusion. Would love to discuss it next to a beer, since it’s fascinating to find these so wildly difderent ideas. How do you even get to a point where you know so much but manage to draw completely different conclusions.
Ukrainians aren’t russian. Their language is different. Their culture is drastically different. Damn even regions inside Ukraine could count as different cultures.
For the split. It happened quite recently. I do recommend talking to people why they split and what was the common ideas on the streets back then from people who lived there. There were massive forced mixing in of Russians in those countries. Those people are usually the ones that still find as “it was better back then”.
For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish “russian death camps” not in most of history textbooks?
Also it’s not unreasonable to hate the aggressor. So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It’s not like tribal collective punishment isn’t engrained in our blood.
Why do you even want to defend an empire?
Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis. I am not arguing about whether everyday Finns might have had animosity towards Russia for a few years. I am talking about being the willing Northern front for Nazi Germany, deporting Jews to camps, rounding up tons of civilians and keeping them in starvation conditions.
This was not tribal, it was a nation state and the forces were political. Lapua members were the key Nazi collaborators and they were anticommunist ideologues long before the Winter War.
Please refrain from bullshit human nature arguments to justify Nazi collaboration.
What on earth are you talking about?
Most of history textbooks barely mention WWII by the same notion. I won’t argue I might know too little about the history of Finland. Although seeing how overwhelmingly current day Finns seem to oppose Russia and often mention the Winter War. It does seem that USSR was the worse of two evils there.
That’s the point. They had a choise. Either side with the Allies and hence USSR (which fucked them up) or ally with Germany. It was an obvious only choise for them.
The point is that tribal “us vs them” is just common. Same goes with countries. It depends if the group has a common identity.
False understanding of your stance on my part. Sorry for that. I thought you’re defending the current day Russian state.
Is it your experience that most people are historically informed as opposed to moved to adopt narratives by dominant forces? Finns have been doing historical revisionism on their alignment with Nazis since the 1940s. You need to have better logic than, “well most Finns say so”.
The Finnish police state was already fascist-aligned before the Winter War. You are just making things up and pretending it is history. It is possible to actually know things, but you have to be humble and actually read. Your imagination is not a history book.
I already addressed this. You can respond to what I said or ignore it entirely but I won’t be entertaining it further if you are going to cherry pick.
The current day Russian state is also not an empire. Again, what on earth are you talking about?
You keep clinging on little details. Russia is an empire due to how many smaller nations were conquered to the east. Just like USA is an Empire etc. Current rebranding doesn’t change the fact.
Fuck ton of countries were fascist just before and during WWII. It’s not a serious argument to make here. Fascism is just getting to power without democratic means.
And for the Finns. I honestly feel sad for you, if you believe there is a conspiracy theory that managed to brainwash an entire nation.
Those “little details” are the core facts in contradiction of your claims.
The Russian Empire did so. The Soviets and RF did not. Though if we are speaking of conquering nations, the US certainly did so, and remains the same political entity it did during its genocides of indigenous Americans. The transitions to the USSR and the RF were in no way trivial, it was not just some rebranding. Both were cataclysmic.
A handful of European countries were fascist around WWII. It is of course a basic fact and remains a deep stain. Please do your best to not normalize Nazi collaboration.
That is not what fascism is at all. Not even under erroneous liberal definitions.
False historical narratives do not require grand conspiracy theories. Just the very normal and common process of manufacturing consent.
Just beause Russian Empire rebranded itself it ia still basically the same size with the same subjugated people. The same yakut people are still subjugated. The cataclysmic event you’re talking about is workers revolt. The other is the collapse where quite a bit of countries at least managed to escape. All we can hope is for the fall of russia and for other cultures to emerge.
Here is the common definition: Fascism - A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
Even if you have 2 fascist countries, their goals and decisions are and usually is different.
And for consent. Look at bloody linux distros. Even if people actually want consent, it is basically impossible to achieve. Every expert will interpret it differently and you will have multiple narratives.
I addressed this in my previous comment. If you’re not going to even read and respond to what I sau, what are we doing here?
Good example. The Yakut people were conquered and annexed by the Russian Empire and many were forced into diaspora. The USSR created a Yakut autonomous region and gave them far more control over their own fates and lands. The RF has done very little other than the usual capitalist exploitation of resources. Three unique stories and three different experiences.
A revolution and creation of a new state premised on substantial regional autonomy and protection for local cultures. Ukraine today owes its entire national existence to Lenin’s insistence on promoting Ukrainian national identity and degrees of autonomy and cultural protections.
A collapse due to capitakist takeover, a time period where the country was subjected to “shock therapy” and dissolved / split against the will of its people. Tens of millions died due to the sudden deprivations. That is the doing of your Western powers whose lines you are echoing
Please refrain from racism.
Yeah that’s not what you said before. Can you spot the differences? Though of course to understand fascism you will need to learn history and politics, not just Google “fascism definition”.
Given that you don’t know what fascism is, why are you confidently announcing generalizations about it? In order to have correct ideas and be helpful to others, it is important to have humility.
You did not understand my reference.
Ukraine had a national identity before Lenin, tho. Although the dude is/was ahead of it’s time. And the social idealism that follows looks pretty neat. Sadly he quickly died and another fella came to power. Usually when people bash USSR they bash Stalin’s regime. It’s far from socialist ideals. You shouldn’t mix it up and just nitpick what you like.
If people are subjugated and still remain under democratic rule, they can still be under repression, due to voting majority. It’s the same reason why Israel fears giving the vote access to palestinians.
You can try to follow Nazi fascism idea of fascism by following history notebooks. But it will get us nowhere. Without common definition that we have. Since for example Lithuania had a president which was with dictatorial levels of power during the time. He was not aligned with Nazi Germany. What kind of word would you use to describe the rule? There are reasons why fascism is defined like it is.
And dude, you can’t be racist against a country. You and I operate with completely different definitions. I doubt we’ll come to a conclusion. Would love to discuss it next to a beer, since it’s fascinating to find these so wildly difderent ideas. How do you even get to a point where you know so much but manage to draw completely different conclusions.
Ukrainians aren’t russian. Their language is different. Their culture is drastically different. Damn even regions inside Ukraine could count as different cultures.
For the split. It happened quite recently. I do recommend talking to people why they split and what was the common ideas on the streets back then from people who lived there. There were massive forced mixing in of Russians in those countries. Those people are usually the ones that still find as “it was better back then”.
TZD