• Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      The problem is that Ukraine is given enough not to lose, but not enough to win. At this rate, Ukraine will depend on western hand-outs much longer than if the West fully committed to see Ukraine restore its borders.

      • Bantha@feddit.de
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        1 year ago

        What do you think “winning” looks like tho? Absolutely annihilating Russia?

        • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Forcing Russia to stop and reverse its invasion. If you think that it will take the total annihilation of russia, so be it.

          • Bantha@feddit.de
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            1 year ago

            No. I don’t think that’s “winning”. First of all Russia is more than just Putin. Actual people live there. As much as in Ukraine. They wouldn’t be that much better than Russia if Ukraine “invaded” Russia back. Also for that to happen the west would need to support Ukraine so dramatically that it most certainly would come to a nuclear Supergau. This “total annihilation of Russia” would mean in return the total annihilation of the human race.

            I don’t think Ukraine can “win” against Russia with sheer military might. No matter how much they are supported. That’s an archaic view of politics and war. The only real solution to bring piece is a peace contract. It isn’t the 11th century anymore where two armies would clash against each other and the one coming out victorious is the winning party of the war. I’m not one of those “stop giving Ukraine weapons and military aid und jUsT tAlK wItH pUtIn” guys but in the end there has to be a treaty. And you can’t do that by just bombing the shit out of Russia cuz that’d mean the end of the fucking world.

      • Krause [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        The problem is that Ukraine is given enough not to lose, but not enough to win.

        The problem is that Ukraine is given what the West can afford to give, they haven’t got the industry to fight Russia’s war machine in a war of attrition anymore after deindustrialization and the shift to neoliberal policies. Sucks to suck, shouldn’t have shipped manufacturing to China to crush their domestic labor movement 😄

        • FaceDeer@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          They’ve been given the West’s surplus. The stuff that’s been sitting in inventory waiting to be decommissioned because it was thought to be obsolete.

          Turns out Russia’s “modern” stuff is inferior to the West’s obsolete stuff, though, so that’s been working pretty well.

          • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            Absurd. America has already given $75 billion in “assistance” to keep this war going, imagine if that had been spent on people who need it in America? And you want to spend even more than that??? Every bomb is food stolen from the mouth of a hungry child.

            • Skua@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              About 24 billion is non-military financial aid and 4 billion more is humanitarian, so that’s a big chunk not being spent on bombs. Slightly more than half of the remainder is the estimated value of old stock being sent over and therefore could not be “spent” on assistance for Americans anyway. The remaining 23 billion that is actually money spent on equipment and training is less than half of one percent of annual federal government expenditure. Weapons for Ukraine are not the reason money isn’t being spent on what you want it to be spent on.

                • Skua@kbin.social
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                  1 year ago

                  Depends on what the countries sending it can afford and what it would take for Russia to stop invading. That’s not the point I’m making. The point is that the none of the countries aiding Ukraine are currently spending anything anywhere close to enough of their budgets to significantly affect any other spending they do. If you’re unhappy with how your government directs the other 99.6% of its budget, yeah, I get that. I am at mine too. But helping Ukraine is not the problem there.

                  • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    No one is helping Ukraine! It’s all just a ploy to keep the war going forever.

                    Where do you think inflation comes from? It comes from throwing money into the war machine.

            • Pons_Aelius@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              What is your plan than?

              What should the west do?

              Let me guess, you have no alternative that does not boil down to “Let Putin and people like him do what they want.”

              • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                Negotiate an end to the war. I’d support a UN monitored vote in the Donbass region and Crimea (and any other contested area) on whether they want to join Russia or stay with Ukraine.

                • Spzi@lemm.ee
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                  1 year ago

                  Let’s assume a peace is negotiated, in which each party assures it respects the aggreed-upon borders. Similar to the Budapest Memorandum, signed and broken by Russia. How could Ukraine trust them this time?

                  I’d support a UN monitored vote in the Donbass region and Crimea (and any other contested area) on whether they want to join Russia or stay with Ukraine.

                  That sounds good at first glance. But given Russia has the opportunity to persecute any opposition in the contested areas, and bring in loyal settlers, the results are likely skewed even if the vote itself is fair and transparent.

                  Fundamentally, I still don’t understand why one should negotiate with a burglar how much they get to keep.

                  • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    Let’s assume a peace is negotiated, in which each party assures it respects the aggreed-upon borders. Similar to the Budapest Memorandum, signed and broken by Russia. How could Ukraine trust them this time?

                    America broke it first with the Belarus sanctions. The real question is if Russia can trust America.

                    And it can’t, so I guess the war will never end. We’ll argue about it for the next 20 years.

                    But given Russia has the opportunity to persecute any opposition in the contested areas, and bring in loyal settlers, the results are likely skewed even if the vote itself is fair and transparent.

                    If the UN vote monitors detect manipulation then they call it off. Simple.

                • Pons_Aelius@kbin.social
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                  1 year ago

                  Negotiate an end to the war.

                  Russia refuses to give back the lands seized.

                  Now what to you do?

                  I’d support a UN monitored vote in the Donbass region and Crimea (and any other contested area) on whether they want to join Russia or stay with Ukraine.

                  Not an option the Ukrainian gov will accept. Nor should they.
                  When parts of the USA wanted to leave that was not response from the USA.

                  • Krause [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    Not an option the Ukrainian gov will accept

                    Losers don’t get to dictate rules, the negotiations will be between Russia and US/NATO, it doesn’t matter what the client state thinks.

                  • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    I don’t expect Russia to give back lands seized. I expect the will of voters to be respected by both sides.

                    The Ukrainian government will accept any option we give them. They’re our puppet.

                    When parts of the USA wanted to leave that was not resonance from the USA.

                    That sure as hell wasn’t democratic! It’s not like Black people got a vote.

                • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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                  1 year ago

                  Sorry, but as if. Russia is a UN veto power. And Russia would never accept UN troops sent by the West to oversee anything. And african nations won’t want to piss off Putin by agreeing to this. Putin wants his anti-NATO back and this war will only end with Putin thuroughly defeated.
                  Not to mention that such a vote would be a farce anyway. Russia has had enough time to kill, torture, intimidate or disappear enough people that such a vote could never be fair.
                  And as for the money spent on Ukraine, it’s but a cheap talking point to suggest that supporting Ukraine and supporting your own population are mutually exclusive. Not to mention believing that if the money wouldn’t have been spent on Ukraine, that your own people would’ve seen that money is pretty delusional. For starters, most of the support sent by the US is hardware. And the given value for that support is the replacement cost for the kit sent. However, most of the kit sent was due to be replaced anyways, so the actual cost for the US is much lower than the figure being thrown around.

                  • Krause [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    this war will only end with Putin thuroughly defeated

                    Do you really believe that? After 3 months of this pathetic counteroffensive with nothing to show do you honestly still believe that Ukraine will turn things around with the power of friendship?

                  • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    Russia having UN veto power is why a UN monitored vote could actually be trusted by both sides, what the hell are you talking about?

                    And no one is “supporting” Ukraine. They’re ensuring the war never ends, there will never be enough support to actually end the war.

            • diffuselight@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              You know full well we do not spend food on horn children in America for they come from sin. We only care about the unborn. Ask clearly you are fake american.

    • diffuselight@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      It’s good use for the money, this way it’s not used to buy Russian fossil fuel or help billionaires commit suicide in expensive vanity submarines.

      • SexMachineStalin [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        this way it’s not used to buy Russian fossil fuel or help billionaires commit suicide in expensive vanity submarines

        This is actually a much better way to use the money,lmao. Also _elenskyy should have just stuck to playing the piano with his knob.

        Haha, pianist :submarine:

        • diffuselight@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Sure makes you tankies mad that a comedian has been destroying the legend of the glorious red army and their special operation 😂

          • huf [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            what red army? there hasnt been a red army in ~30 years and back when there was, ukrainians were part of it…

            do you think russia is communist? do you think we think russia is communist? please wash your brain, it’s dirty.